Discussion:
Measuring acidity
(too old to reply)
Sci Tech
2010-11-15 11:23:31 UTC
Permalink
pH measured by pH meters (actually called potentiometers) is a converted
property from mV of the solution through the Nernst equation. A kind of
an operational amplifier within the meter is taking care of this.

pH scale in aqueous solutions from 0-14 is limited by the pKa of water
at a given temperature (usually taken at 25oC). Most meters have a
temperature compensation probe to correct the reading for temperature
variation.

You can use pH in any aqueous/non-aqueous solution, however, if you do
not have the correct pKa' for that mixture, you have to run a
calibration through which you measure the correct pKa' of that mixture
and manually convert mV reading to pH through the Nernst equation.

It is true that in many pure non-aqueous solvents or others, people use
a pH electrode to measure the pH to check the acidity/alkalinity of that
solvent as a degree of checking its quality. This is not a correct
practice, because the pH meter is calibrated using aqueous standards and
the measurement is done in a totally different medium. Again a question
of pKa', junction potential and mobility of ions that differ strongly
from the calibrated and measured media. So far, you cannot use a pH
meter without a calibration. Luckily, there are some efforts as to
supply ready made pH standards for calibration in media that differ
slightly from aqueous solution such as blood, waste water, sea water,
etc... As to my knowledge, no pH standards available for non-aqueous
solvents or oil. For oil, I agree that it is the H+ considered as
impurities within the oil is taking care of the reading you get because
for the simple reason, pH electrodes are only responsive for H+ ions.

Regards,

SK

On 10.11.2010 01:48 PM, Andrew Usher wrote:
> We're taught to sue the pH scale to measure acidity, and that this
> only works in aqueous solutions - the extension called 'pKa' is
> supposed to work for non-aqueous substances, but I've only ever seen
> it for single molecules, not solutions. Yet all solutions do have a
> fixed ability to donate a proton, though the indicator (or inert
> surface) may be affected by the solution also.
>
> The greater problem is that the pH scale is fixed to the temperature
> 25 C, and does not generalise properly. Because water's self-
> ionisation constant increases with temperature, the strict definition
> of pH requires a neutral solution to change with temperature, and a
> basic one even more, which is hardly desirable, and makes the analysis
> of corrosion at different temperatures unnecessarily difficult.
>
> What we're really meaning to talk about is the energy of proton
> transfer, right? So acidity ought to be measured in volts, just like
> redox equilibria, and for the same reason. This would be nearly
> independent of temperature, as well as applying to all solvents. If
> this were taught, and also energy measured in electron-volts, then it
> would be obvious that both acid-base and redox reactions are merely
> special cases (though the most important) of chemical change in
> general.
>
> Indeed, it would also make obvious why certain redox equilibria change
> with pH, and by how much - namely, by an amount equal to the acidity
> multiplied by the number of protons transferred per electron. I
> propose that pure water be defined as 0 V, at all temperatures - since
> water is certainly the most important solvent.
>
> Andrew Usher
Androcles
2010-11-15 11:39:59 UTC
Permalink
"Sci Tech" <***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
news:ibr56r$n7k$***@speranza.aioe.org...
|
| pH measured by pH meters (actually called potentiometers)

Bwahahahahahahahaha!
<http://tinyurl.com/2vgdyom>
Sci Tech
2010-11-16 10:40:43 UTC
Permalink
On 15.11.2010 01:39 PM, Androcles wrote:
>
> "Sci Tech"<***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
> news:ibr56r$n7k$***@speranza.aioe.org...
> |
> | pH measured by pH meters (actually called potentiometers)
>
> Bwahahahahahahahaha!
> <http://tinyurl.com/2vgdyom>
>

Whatever, ignorant boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_point

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-meter
Androcles
2010-11-16 10:58:04 UTC
Permalink
"Sci Tech" <***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
news:ibtn37$def$***@speranza.aioe.org...
|
|
| On 15.11.2010 01:39 PM, Androcles wrote:
| >
| > "Sci Tech"<***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
| > news:ibr56r$n7k$***@speranza.aioe.org...
| > |
| > | pH measured by pH meters (actually called potentiometers)
| >
| > Bwahahahahahahahaha!
| > <http://tinyurl.com/2vgdyom>
| >
|
| Whatever, ignorant boy.
|
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_point

Wackypedia is no reliable reference.
An instrument which measures electrode potential is a VOLTMETER, even
without pictures of Jimmy Wales.

|
| http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-meter
|
Wherein it says
"a pH meter is nothing else but precise voltmeter, connected to the pH
electrode, and scaled in such a way that it displays not the measured
potential, but ready pH value."

So the display does NOT measure electrical potential and IS a voltmeter with
pH written on it, by the reference you supplied.

So a pH meter is actually called a "pH meter".

Shove your whatever up your arse, arrogant ignorant fuckwitted cunt!
Sci Tech
2010-11-16 11:48:00 UTC
Permalink
On 16.11.2010 12:58 PM, Androcles wrote:
>
> "Sci Tech"<***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
> news:ibtn37$def$***@speranza.aioe.org...
> |
> |
> | On 15.11.2010 01:39 PM, Androcles wrote:
> |>
> |> "Sci Tech"<***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
> |> news:ibr56r$n7k$***@speranza.aioe.org...
> |> |
> |> | pH measured by pH meters (actually called potentiometers)
> |>
> |> Bwahahahahahahahaha!
> |> <http://tinyurl.com/2vgdyom>
> |>
> |
> | Whatever, ignorant boy.
> |
> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_point
>
> Wackypedia is no reliable reference.
> An instrument which measures electrode potential is a VOLTMETER, even
> without pictures of Jimmy Wales.
>
> |
> | http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-meter
> |
> Wherein it says
> "a pH meter is nothing else but precise voltmeter, connected to the pH
> electrode, and scaled in such a way that it displays not the measured
> potential, but ready pH value."
>
> So the display does NOT measure electrical potential and IS a voltmeter with
> pH written on it, by the reference you supplied.
>
> So a pH meter is actually called a "pH meter".
>
> Shove your whatever up your arse, arrogant ignorant fuckwitted cunt!


More ignorant than I thought. Go through all the links to understand
better, make your own search, ... Can't even understand what you read,
the origin of this meter is the mV; a potential reading.

Commercial companies describe it as a pH meter (plain English) for the
beginners like you to understand.

The display can off course show the potential (mV) in many
potentiometers (for those like you sometimes they call it
potentiometeric pH meters).

This is one instrument as an example that can display mV, pH and
temperature (check Orion, Mettler, Metrohm, as well)

http://www.supplycloud.com/product.php?productid=16207&cat=255&bestseller=Y
Androcles
2010-11-16 12:25:00 UTC
Permalink
"Sci Tech" <***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
news:ibtr1d$mml$***@speranza.aioe.org...
|
|
| On 16.11.2010 12:58 PM, Androcles wrote:
| >
| > "Sci Tech"<***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
| > news:ibtn37$def$***@speranza.aioe.org...
| > |
| > |
| > | On 15.11.2010 01:39 PM, Androcles wrote:
| > |>
| > |> "Sci Tech"<***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
| > |> news:ibr56r$n7k$***@speranza.aioe.org...
| > |> |
| > |> | pH measured by pH meters (actually called potentiometers)
| > |>
| > |> Bwahahahahahahahaha!
| > |> <http://tinyurl.com/2vgdyom>
| > |>
| > |
| > | Whatever, ignorant boy.
| > |
| > | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_point
| >
| > Wackypedia is no reliable reference.
| > An instrument which measures electrode potential is a VOLTMETER, even
| > without pictures of Jimmy Wales.
| >
| > |
| > | http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-meter
| > |
| > Wherein it says
| > "a pH meter is nothing else but precise voltmeter, connected to the pH
| > electrode, and scaled in such a way that it displays not the measured
| > potential, but ready pH value."
| >
| > So the display does NOT measure electrical potential and IS a voltmeter
with
| > pH written on it, by the reference you supplied.
| >
| > So a pH meter is actually called a "pH meter".
| >
| > Shove your whatever up your arse, arrogant ignorant fuckwitted cunt!
|
|
| More ignorant than I thought

Hoist by your petard and too stupid to admit it. Fuck off and play with your
xmas chemistry set or whatever, little boy, you don't know the first thing
about physics.


The hallmark of a true crank is that he doesn't admit a
blunder even when he has his face shoved into it.-- Paul B. Andersen.

Congratulations, Sci Tech, you passed with flying colours.
poutnik
2010-11-16 16:16:54 UTC
Permalink
In article <3ttEo.124633$***@newsfe27.ams2>,
***@Hogwarts.physics_aa says...
>

>
> So the display does NOT measure electrical potential and IS a voltmeter with
> pH written on it, by the reference you supplied.
>

I am not aware about any voltmeter
that does not measure electrical potential.

--
Poutnik
The best depends on how the best is defined.
Androcles
2010-11-16 16:40:36 UTC
Permalink
"poutnik" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:***@localhost...
| In article <3ttEo.124633$***@newsfe27.ams2>,
| ***@Hogwarts.physics_aa says...
| >
|
| >
| > So the display does NOT measure electrical potential and IS a voltmeter
with
| > pH written on it, by the reference you supplied.
| >
|
| I am not aware about any voltmeter
| that does not measure electrical potential.
|
Actually a voltmeter is a galvanometer measuring the current through
an internal resistor. A multimeter merely switches internal resistors.
If anything a pH meter is an ohmmeter since the meter supplies the
potential, usually in the form of an Energizer Bunny. If a pH meter
measured potential it would always read the battery voltage, which
is of no use to anyone since we already know what it is.
poutnik
2010-11-16 19:20:38 UTC
Permalink
In article <cuyEo.92078$***@newsfe30.ams2>,
***@Hogwarts.physics_aa says...
>
> "poutnik" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:***@localhost...
> |
> | I am not aware about any voltmeter
> | that does not measure electrical potential.
> |
> Actually a voltmeter is a galvanometer measuring the current through
> an internal resistor. A multimeter merely switches internal resistors.
> If anything a pH meter is an ohmmeter since the meter supplies the
> potential, usually in the form of an Energizer Bunny. If a pH meter
> measured potential it would always read the battery voltage, which
> is of no use to anyone since we already know what it is.

Actually a voltmeter is not a galvanometr.
Galvanometr is based on electromagnetic principle,
created to have high sensitivity for passing current
and as low resistance as possible.

Potenciometers
( voltmeter designed to measure electrochemical potencials,
pHmeter is just potenciometer calibrated in pH units )
are not based on elmag principle at all,
and are designed to have very high resistance - up to 10^12 Ohm.
( MOSFET transistor with control gate driven by potential difference )

BTW nobody knows battery voltage until it is measured.

--
Poutnik
Androcles
2010-11-16 19:39:50 UTC
Permalink
"poutnik" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:***@localhost...
| In article <cuyEo.92078$***@newsfe30.ams2>,
| ***@Hogwarts.physics_aa says...
| >
| > "poutnik" <***@privacy.net> wrote in message
| > news:***@localhost...
| > |
| > | I am not aware about any voltmeter
| > | that does not measure electrical potential.
| > |
| > Actually a voltmeter is a galvanometer measuring the current through
| > an internal resistor. A multimeter merely switches internal resistors.
| > If anything a pH meter is an ohmmeter since the meter supplies the
| > potential, usually in the form of an Energizer Bunny. If a pH meter
| > measured potential it would always read the battery voltage, which
| > is of no use to anyone since we already know what it is.
|
| Actually a voltmeter is not a galvanometr.

Actually a voltmeter is a galvanometer measuring the current through
an internal resistor.
Actually you are babbling out of your arse.

*plonk*

Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated;
you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive,
unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic
subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising
for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George
Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination
or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.

Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because
this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are
left to decide which is most applicable to you.

There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically
admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would
wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill-
filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value
as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the
dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the
same spot and repeat the process eternally.

This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing
that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry
or crackpot theories without challenge.

You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The
kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I
purchase a new computer or hard drive.
Update: the last clearance was 19/08/10. Some individuals have been
restored to the list.

I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose
of this message is to encourage others to kill-file fuckwits like you.

I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't,
damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and fuck off.
Martin Brown
2010-11-16 20:20:49 UTC
Permalink
On 16/11/2010 19:20, poutnik wrote:
> In article<cuyEo.92078$***@newsfe30.ams2>,
> ***@Hogwarts.physics_aa says...
>>
>> "poutnik"<***@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:***@localhost...
>> |
>> | I am not aware about any voltmeter
>> | that does not measure electrical potential.
>> |
>> Actually a voltmeter is a galvanometer measuring the current through
>> an internal resistor. A multimeter merely switches internal resistors.
>> If anything a pH meter is an ohmmeter since the meter supplies the
>> potential, usually in the form of an Energizer Bunny. If a pH meter
>> measured potential it would always read the battery voltage, which
>> is of no use to anyone since we already know what it is.
>
> Actually a voltmeter is not a galvanometr.
> Galvanometr is based on electromagnetic principle,
> created to have high sensitivity for passing current
> and as low resistance as possible.

You should be aware that Androcles is a third rate netkook with
delusions of adequacy.
>
> Potenciometers
> ( voltmeter designed to measure electrochemical potencials,
> pHmeter is just potenciometer calibrated in pH units )
> are not based on elmag principle at all,
> and are designed to have very high resistance - up to 10^12 Ohm.
> ( MOSFET transistor with control gate driven by potential difference )

The measurement can at least in principle be done as a null current flow
when the reference voltage is exactly equal to the potential being
measured. That is the root of modern potentiometers - the originals were
intended for measuring unknown voltages against a potential divider.
They were originally for measuring unknown potentials accurately without
disturbing a high impedance voltage source.

Modern systems use unity gain voltage followers on the input with
insanely high input impedance of at least 10^13 ohm if done right.

Example datasheet of a suitable front end opamp from a while ago:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/208/147471_DS.pdf

And a datasheet from one of the pH probe makers to confirm that the
classic aqueous pH measurement is actually a voltage measurement
interpreted according to the Nernst equation usually with a temperature
correction applied inside the instrument.

http://www.sensorex.com/support/education/pH_education.html

Androcles likes to parade his wilful ignorance and stupidity.
He is best off in your killfile or inside a lion.

Regards,
Martin Brown
Sci Tech
2010-11-17 00:21:29 UTC
Permalink
On 16.11.2010 10:20 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 16/11/2010 19:20, poutnik wrote:
>> In article<cuyEo.92078$***@newsfe30.ams2>,
>> ***@Hogwarts.physics_aa says...
>>>
>>> "poutnik"<***@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>> news:***@localhost...
>>> |
>>> | I am not aware about any voltmeter
>>> | that does not measure electrical potential.
>>> |
>>> Actually a voltmeter is a galvanometer measuring the current through
>>> an internal resistor. A multimeter merely switches internal resistors.
>>> If anything a pH meter is an ohmmeter since the meter supplies the
>>> potential, usually in the form of an Energizer Bunny. If a pH meter
>>> measured potential it would always read the battery voltage, which
>>> is of no use to anyone since we already know what it is.
>>
>> Actually a voltmeter is not a galvanometr.
>> Galvanometr is based on electromagnetic principle,
>> created to have high sensitivity for passing current
>> and as low resistance as possible.
>
> You should be aware that Androcles is a third rate netkook with
> delusions of adequacy.
>>
>> Potenciometers
>> ( voltmeter designed to measure electrochemical potencials,
>> pHmeter is just potenciometer calibrated in pH units )
>> are not based on elmag principle at all,
>> and are designed to have very high resistance - up to 10^12 Ohm.
>> ( MOSFET transistor with control gate driven by potential difference )
>
> The measurement can at least in principle be done as a null current flow
> when the reference voltage is exactly equal to the potential being
> measured. That is the root of modern potentiometers - the originals were
> intended for measuring unknown voltages against a potential divider.
> They were originally for measuring unknown potentials accurately without
> disturbing a high impedance voltage source.
>
> Modern systems use unity gain voltage followers on the input with
> insanely high input impedance of at least 10^13 ohm if done right.
>
> Example datasheet of a suitable front end opamp from a while ago:
> http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/208/147471_DS.pdf
>
> And a datasheet from one of the pH probe makers to confirm that the
> classic aqueous pH measurement is actually a voltage measurement
> interpreted according to the Nernst equation usually with a temperature
> correction applied inside the instrument.
>
> http://www.sensorex.com/support/education/pH_education.html

Nice presentation, thank you.
>
> Androcles likes to parade his wilful ignorance and stupidity.
> He is best off in your killfile or inside a lion.

Thank you for the advice concerning Androcles.

Regards,

SK

>
> Regards,
> Martin Brown
Androcles
2010-11-17 04:58:48 UTC
Permalink
"Sci Tech" <***@tsolver.net> wrote in message
news:ibv766$vhi$***@speranza.aioe.org...
|
|
| On 16.11.2010 10:20 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
| > On 16/11/2010 19:20, poutnik wrote:
| >> In article<cuyEo.92078$***@newsfe30.ams2>,
| >> ***@Hogwarts.physics_aa says...
| >>>
| >>> "poutnik"<***@privacy.net> wrote in message
| >>> news:***@localhost...
| >>> |
| >>> | I am not aware about any voltmeter
| >>> | that does not measure electrical potential.
| >>> |
| >>> Actually a voltmeter is a galvanometer measuring the current through
| >>> an internal resistor. A multimeter merely switches internal resistors.
| >>> If anything a pH meter is an ohmmeter since the meter supplies the
| >>> potential, usually in the form of an Energizer Bunny. If a pH meter
| >>> measured potential it would always read the battery voltage, which
| >>> is of no use to anyone since we already know what it is.
| >>
| >> Actually a voltmeter is not a galvanometr.
| >> Galvanometr is based on electromagnetic principle,
| >> created to have high sensitivity for passing current
| >> and as low resistance as possible.
| >
| > You should be aware that Androcles is a third rate netkook with
| > delusions of adequacy.
| >>
| >> Potenciometers
| >> ( voltmeter designed to measure electrochemical potencials,
| >> pHmeter is just potenciometer calibrated in pH units )
| >> are not based on elmag principle at all,
| >> and are designed to have very high resistance - up to 10^12 Ohm.
| >> ( MOSFET transistor with control gate driven by potential difference )
| >
| > The measurement can at least in principle be done as a null current flow
| > when the reference voltage is exactly equal to the potential being
| > measured. That is the root of modern potentiometers - the originals were
| > intended for measuring unknown voltages against a potential divider.
| > They were originally for measuring unknown potentials accurately without
| > disturbing a high impedance voltage source.
| >
| > Modern systems use unity gain voltage followers on the input with
| > insanely high input impedance of at least 10^13 ohm if done right.
| >
| > Example datasheet of a suitable front end opamp from a while ago:
| > http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/208/147471_DS.pdf
| >
| > And a datasheet from one of the pH probe makers to confirm that the
| > classic aqueous pH measurement is actually a voltage measurement
| > interpreted according to the Nernst equation usually with a temperature
| > correction applied inside the instrument.
| >
| > http://www.sensorex.com/support/education/pH_education.html
|
| Nice presentation, thank you.
| >
| > Androcles likes to parade his wilful ignorance and stupidity.
| > He is best off in your killfile or inside a lion.
|
| Thank you for the advice concerning Androcles.
|
"A pH meter is called a potentiometer" -- Dumbfuck ***@tsolver.net,
and dumbfuck Brown believes it.
I've heard of the blind leading the blind, but this is the insane
leading the psychotic.
Bwahahahahahahahaha!
Andrew Usher
2010-11-15 12:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Thank you. This was what I was looking for. Can you clarify, though:

- Are you saying pH meters are compensated to read true pH at any
temperature?
- Should any pH meter be able to read in millivolts? (I don't have one
right now to check).
- What's a pKa' ? I expect it measures how much the proton is solvated
in a solution.

Andrew Usher
Sci Tech
2010-11-16 11:01:24 UTC
Permalink
On 15.11.2010 02:34 PM, Andrew Usher wrote:
> Thank you. This was what I was looking for. Can you clarify, though:
>
> - Are you saying pH meters are compensated to read true pH at any
> temperature?

True pH? I prefer saying an accurate pH (as possible). The temperature
probe compensate for the variation of pH standards values with
temperature during calibration and measurement.

You may consult this useful link (also contains the variation of pH
standards values with temperature)

http://www.norweco.com/html/lab/test_methods/4500hbfp.htm

> - Should any pH meter be able to read in millivolts? (I don't have one
> right now to check).

No, simple meters (or portable ones) read directly in pH, they do not
contain the switch necessary to show the mV reading, although
internally, the reading is made in mV. Good and professional ones reads
in mV beside the converted quantity pH.

You can also consult this useful link and links therein

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-meter

> - What's a pKa' ? I expect it measures how much the proton is solvated
> in a solution.

The Ka is the ion product constant of water (Ka = [H+][OH-]). The pKa is
simply the negative logarithm of this quantity. Where the brackets
denote molar concentration. Ka = 1.00x10-14 at 25oC in water, the pKa =
14.000. In alcohol, the pKa will be different and hence the pH scale of
water will not be valid for use in alcohol.

Regards,

SK


>
> Andrew Usher
Andrew Usher
2010-11-17 13:22:40 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 16, 11:01 am, Sci Tech <***@tsolver.net> wrote:

> > - What's a pKa' ? I expect it measures how much the proton is solvated
> > in a solution.
>
> The Ka is the ion product constant of water (Ka = [H+][OH-]). The pKa is
> simply the negative logarithm of this quantity. Where the brackets
> denote molar concentration. Ka = 1.00x10-14 at 25oC in water, the pKa =
> 14.000. In alcohol, the pKa will be different and hence the pH scale of
> water will not be valid for use in alcohol.

I understand this, but not why this causes the electrode voltage to
change. I assumed by pKa' you meant some deviation from the correct
(water-equivalent) reading.

Andrew Usher
Sci Tech
2010-11-19 11:34:39 UTC
Permalink
On 17.11.2010 03:22 PM, Andrew Usher wrote:
> On Nov 16, 11:01 am, Sci Tech<***@tsolver.net> wrote:
>
>>> - What's a pKa' ? I expect it measures how much the proton is solvated
>>> in a solution.
>>
>> The Ka is the ion product constant of water (Ka = [H+][OH-]). The pKa is
>> simply the negative logarithm of this quantity. Where the brackets
>> denote molar concentration. Ka = 1.00x10-14 at 25oC in water, the pKa =
>> 14.000. In alcohol, the pKa will be different and hence the pH scale of
>> water will not be valid for use in alcohol.
>
> I understand this, but not why this causes the electrode voltage to
> change. I assumed by pKa' you meant some deviation from the correct
> (water-equivalent) reading.
>

The Ka is a measured quantity that reflects the change in the solution
equilibrium on going for instance from pure water to 0.1M NaCl to 50%
alcohol, etc... It is not this quantity that cause the potential of the
solution to change.

The potential of the solution changes because the mobility of the ions
change upon addition of salts such as NaCl, or a change in the amount of
water as in 50% alcohol. This is a very simple explanation.

Other variables that affect the mobility of the ions, the solvation of
the medium and hence affect the solution potential are: Ionic strength
(this is related to the concentration of the ions in the solution and
the charge of the ions), the temperature, the amount of water. During
measurement with an electrode responsive to H+ ion (or others), the
liquid junction potential is also to be considered (this is also related
to the mobility of the ions in the solution), assuming after all the
measurement is carried at 1 atm. Moreover, using concentration under
chosen experimental conditions instead of activity is in fact a good
approximation to avoid the activity coefficient.

For a long time, researchers are relating the Ka (of water) or any other
stability constant to the ionic strength of the solution through an
equation. From this relation, a prediction of Ka value at any given
ionic strength (within the domain of the experiment) can be obtained. In
addition, the value Ka at zero ionic strength can also be obtained
specific to the pure medium (water, 50% alcohol, etc...)

Regards,

SK


> Andrew Usher
Andrew Usher
2010-11-19 23:55:31 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 19, 5:34 am, Sci Tech <***@tsolver.net> wrote:

> The Ka is a measured quantity that reflects the change in the solution
> equilibrium on going for instance from pure water to 0.1M NaCl to 50%
> alcohol, etc... It is not this quantity that cause the potential of the
> solution to change.

<etc. etc. etc.>

It's obvious you don't really understand this. pKa means one thing in
chemistry, and this isn't it.

Andrew Usher
Poutnik
2010-11-20 09:11:07 UTC
Permalink
>
> On Nov 19, 5:34 am, Sci Tech <***@tsolver.net> wrote:
>
> > The Ka is a measured quantity that reflects the change in the solution
> > equilibrium on going for instance from pure water to 0.1M NaCl to 50%
> > alcohol, etc... It is not this quantity that cause the potential of the
> > solution to change.

Ka in electrochemistry
is dissociation constant of acids,
a kind of equilibrium constant.

Water simultaneously acts as weak acid and weak base.

Equilibrium for water keeps constant
c(H+) x c(OH-) = Ka
where c is concentration in mol/liter.
(More exactly, it is valid for activities)

If taken as negative decadic logarithms, you get
pH + pOH = pKa

Ka for H2O is 10^-14 for 25deg C, pKa is 14.( I guess 13.98, not handy )
Ka grows ( pKa gets lower) with temparature, as far as water is more
dissociated.
Ka / pKa does not depend on solution composition.

--
Poutnik
Poutnik
2010-11-20 09:26:20 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.felk.cvut.cz>,
***@privacy.net says...
>
>
> Ka for H2O is 10^-14 for 25deg C, pKa is 14.( I guess 13.98, not handy )
> Ka grows ( pKa gets lower) with temparature, as far as water is more
> dissociated.
> Ka / pKa does not depend on solution composition.

It means Ka / pKa for water and given T is same
for pure water as for NaCl solution as for 50% alcohol.

What changes is H+ / OH- activity coeficients.
( a kind of ratio between "reactivity" and concentration.
If they are less reactive, there can be more to keep equilibrium )

Note that alcohol has its own Ka.

--
Poutnik
Poutnik
2010-11-20 09:39:53 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.felk.cvut.cz>,
***@privacy.net says...
>
>
Maybe better explanation of activity coefficient
gamma = activity / concentration is

if e.g. gamma = 0.9

it means from 10 ions
statistically 1 one always pretends
"I am not here"
being busy by interaction with other ions.

--
Poutnik
Sci Tech
2010-11-20 20:07:41 UTC
Permalink
On 20.11.2010 11:26 AM, Poutnik wrote:
> In article<***@news.felk.cvut.cz>,
> ***@privacy.net says...
>>
>>
>> Ka for H2O is 10^-14 for 25deg C, pKa is 14.( I guess 13.98, not handy )
>> Ka grows ( pKa gets lower) with temparature, as far as water is more
>> dissociated.
>> Ka / pKa does not depend on solution composition.
>
> It means Ka / pKa for water and given T is same
> for pure water as for NaCl solution as for 50% alcohol.

I guess I responded to this in my previous posting. Unfortunately, there
is a difference.
>
> What changes is H+ / OH- activity coeficients.

So what is the physical meaning of the activity coefficient?

The activity coefficient is a measure of the chemical potential arising
from ion-ion interaction!

When the solution gets more and more "crowded" with ions, the solvation
of ions are affected, the mobility of ions are affected, until reaching
a quasi lattice arrangement. Accordingly, the potential of the solution
changes.

So to get back to the original question of Andrew, ".... but not why
this causes the electrode voltage to change". I guess it is clear now.


> ( a kind of ratio between "reactivity" and concentration.
> If they are less reactive, there can be more to keep equilibrium )
>
> Note that alcohol has its own Ka.
>
Poutnik
2010-11-20 22:00:22 UTC
Permalink
In article <ic99q8$q75$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>
> >
> > What changes is H+ / OH- activity coeficients.
>
> So what is the physical meaning of the activity coefficient?
>
> The activity coefficient is a measure of the chemical potential arising
> from ion-ion interaction!
>
> When the solution gets more and more "crowded" with ions, the solvation
> of ions are affected, the mobility of ions are affected, until reaching
> a quasi lattice arrangement. Accordingly, the potential of the solution
> changes.
>
To this point I agree, with objection there is a danger
to mix chemical potential mi ( J/mol ),
and electrochemical potential E ( V ).

Note that things are not so easy, for concentrated acids
the coeficients become to grow again.


--
Poutnik
Sci Tech
2010-11-21 06:17:33 UTC
Permalink
On 21.11.2010 12:00 AM, Poutnik wrote:
> In article<ic99q8$q75$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>>
>>>
>>> What changes is H+ / OH- activity coeficients.
>>
>> So what is the physical meaning of the activity coefficient?
>>
>> The activity coefficient is a measure of the chemical potential arising
>> from ion-ion interaction!
>>
>> When the solution gets more and more "crowded" with ions, the solvation
>> of ions are affected, the mobility of ions are affected, until reaching
>> a quasi lattice arrangement. Accordingly, the potential of the solution
>> changes.
>>
> To this point I agree, with objection there is a danger
> to mix chemical potential mi ( J/mol ),
> and electrochemical potential E ( V ).

Clearly.

>
> Note that things are not so easy, for concentrated acids
> the coeficients become to grow again.
>
>
Not only conc. acids but some salts too. I never said it was an easy and
straight forward problem. Just trying to reach a physical meaning for
the general understanding of the problem.
poutnik
2010-11-20 09:56:00 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.felk.cvut.cz>,
***@privacy.net says...
>
> Ka / pKa does not depend on solution composition.

More exactly, Ka does not depend on composition,
but a(H+) * a(OH-) slightly depend on it,
as far activity of H2O is lower in solutions.

Ka(H2O) is in fact = a(H+) * a(OH-) / a(H2O)
where a(H2O) is taken as constant
with agreed value = 1 for pure water,
and asymptotically for very dilute ion solutions
a(activity) = c(molar concentration)

--
Poutnik
Sci Tech
2010-11-20 20:35:14 UTC
Permalink
On 20.11.2010 11:56 AM, poutnik wrote:
> In article<***@news.felk.cvut.cz>,
> ***@privacy.net says...
>>
>> Ka / pKa does not depend on solution composition.
>
> More exactly, Ka does not depend on composition,
> but a(H+) * a(OH-) slightly depend on it,
> as far activity of H2O is lower in solutions.

You defined Ka = a(H+)*a(OH-), if the activities depend on composition,
then Ka also depend on composition.
>
> Ka(H2O) is in fact = a(H+) * a(OH-) / a(H2O)
> where a(H2O) is taken as constant
> with agreed value = 1 for pure water,
> and asymptotically for very dilute ion solutions
> a(activity) = c(molar concentration)
>
Please do not confuse the subscript a in Ka with activity, "a" in Ka is
for acid dissociation constant.

Here are the standard terminology for a water equilibrium of the type

2H2O <==> H3O+ + OH-

Ko = {H+}{OH-}/{H2O}2 = [H+][OH-]/[H2o]2 x (gH+ gOH-)/gH2O
Ko = K x (gH+ gOH-)/gH2O

K [H2O]2 = Kw = [H+][OH-] = ion-product constant of water (in
concentration scale)

Ko {H2O}2 = Kwo = {H+}{OH-}


Where {} denote activity, [] denote concentration
g = gamma = activity coefficient

Ko is the thermodynamic equilibrium constant or so called when used in
activity scale.

K is the concentration equilibrium constant

Kwo is the ion product constant of water in terms of activity.

For simplicity I used H+ instead of H3O+.

Please excuse me for not being able to write the subscript/superscript
correctly.

Regards,

SK
Poutnik
2010-11-20 22:24:32 UTC
Permalink
In article <ic9bdt$18f$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>
>
> You defined Ka = a(H+)*a(OH-), if the activities depend on composition,
> then Ka also depend on composition.
> >
> > Ka(H2O) is in fact = a(H+) * a(OH-) / a(H2O)
> > where a(H2O) is taken as constant
> > with agreed value = 1 for pure water,
> > and asymptotically for very dilute ion solutions
> > a(activity) = c(molar concentration)
> >
> Please do not confuse the subscript a in Ka with activity, "a" in Ka is
> for acid dissociation constant.

If we consider more exact ( as I have said by other words )
Kw = Ka (H2O) = a(H+) * a(OH-) / a(H2O)
then it does not depend.
The point is it is task impossible to know all parameters.

I apologize I was not aware I wrote it in way
confusion was possible. Plain text is always inferior in formulas.

> Here are the standard terminology for a water equilibrium of the type
> .......

I am familiar - or better to say I was familiar years ago
with terminology, so notation I could forgot, chabged,
or is used depending on countries.

BTW in fact in aqaeous solutions is present
rather H9O4+ ( H3O+ . 3 H2O ) than H3O+ .


--
Poutnik
Sci Tech
2010-11-21 06:54:26 UTC
Permalink
On 21.11.2010 12:24 AM, Poutnik wrote:
> In article<ic9bdt$18f$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>>
>>
>> You defined Ka = a(H+)*a(OH-), if the activities depend on composition,
>> then Ka also depend on composition.
>>>
>>> Ka(H2O) is in fact = a(H+) * a(OH-) / a(H2O)
>>> where a(H2O) is taken as constant
>>> with agreed value = 1 for pure water,
>>> and asymptotically for very dilute ion solutions
>>> a(activity) = c(molar concentration)
>>>
>> Please do not confuse the subscript a in Ka with activity, "a" in Ka is
>> for acid dissociation constant.
>
> If we consider more exact ( as I have said by other words )
> Kw = Ka (H2O) = a(H+) * a(OH-) / a(H2O)
> then it does not depend.
> The point is it is task impossible to know all parameters.

Yes, it is not easy to get all the activity coefficients of all ions in
different medium. Although there are some good work out there using
sometimes semi-empirical equations to predict ion-interaction but still
not the end of the story.

Please be aware that activity coefficients are functions of the ionic
strength and some other parameters. Kw (even in activity scale) will
change when changing the concentration of ions in the medium. By the
way, varying experimentally the concentration of ions (supporting
electrolytes) in the medium and calculating each time Kw(I) at ionic
strength I is a way to obtain (through equations) the value of Kw(I=0)
that has the value 13.99 at 25oC (or the so called in pure water).


>
> I apologize I was not aware I wrote it in way
> confusion was possible. Plain text is always inferior in formulas.
>
>> Here are the standard terminology for a water equilibrium of the type
>> .......
>
> I am familiar - or better to say I was familiar years ago
> with terminology, so notation I could forgot, chabged,
> or is used depending on countries.

Even researchers do not abide to standard notation as long as they
define what they write.
>
> BTW in fact in aqaeous solutions is present
> rather H9O4+ ( H3O+ . 3 H2O ) than H3O+ .
>

True, but H3O+ is now common and does the job well.
poutnik
2010-11-21 09:03:50 UTC
Permalink
In article <icafmt$ltg$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>
>
> Please be aware that activity coefficients are functions of the ionic
> strength and some other parameters. Kw (even in activity scale) will
> change when changing the concentration of ions in the medium. By the
> way, varying experimentally the concentration of ions (supporting
> electrolytes) in the medium and calculating each time Kw(I) at ionic
> strength I is a way to obtain (through equations) the value of Kw(I=0)
> that has the value 13.99 at 25oC (or the so called in pure water).
>
From practical point of view this is true,
it will change, based on what we can measure and compute.

In so complex systems as ion solutions are
there is always something we do not know.



--
Poutnik
Andrew Usher
2010-11-21 20:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Both you and Scitech appear unable to distinguish the concept of pKa
from the ion product of water. They are defined to be equal for pure
water at 25 C (which is admittedly confusing) but are not the same
thing. Hence my proposal to measure them in different units.

Andrew Usher
Poutnik
2010-11-21 23:33:48 UTC
Permalink
In article <b4865389-3fa4-499c-be1a-0f07d1163492
@p1g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, ***@yahoo.com says...
>
> Both you and Scitech appear unable to distinguish the concept of pKa
> from the ion product of water. They are defined to be equal for pure
> water at 25 C (which is admittedly confusing) but are not the same
> thing. Hence my proposal to measure them in different units.
>
> Andrew Usher

It is rather you did not fully catch the topic.

Kw / pKw for water, being amphiprotic solvent
is a very special case of Ka / pKa for water being acid
and Kb / pKb for water being a base.

--
Poutnik
Andrew Usher
2010-11-22 00:52:39 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 21, 11:33 pm, Poutnik <***@privacy.net> wrote:

> It is rather you did not fully catch the topic.

No, it is you that is still confused.

> Kw / pKw for water, being amphiprotic solvent
> is a very special case of Ka / pKa for water being acid
> and Kb / pKb for water being a base.

There is nothing special about water but that the pKa scale was
defined based on the pH scale in water. The pKa of H3O+ = 0 by
definition and the pKb of OH- = 0 for the same reason. This gives for
H2O pKa = pKb = 15.7 (not 14). However bases are always cited nowadays
as the pKa of their conjugate acid; this can be confusing if you don't
know.

Andrew Usher
Poutnik
2010-11-22 07:05:03 UTC
Permalink
In article <9f30de37-47fd-4840-b709-b49bd5fd6929
@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, ***@yahoo.com says...
>
>
> > Kw / pKw for water, being amphiprotic solvent
> > is a very special case of Ka / pKa for water being acid
> > and Kb / pKb for water being a base.
>
> There is nothing special about water but that the pKa scale was
> defined based on the pH scale in water. The pKa of H3O+ = 0 by
> definition and the pKb of OH- = 0 for the same reason. This gives for
> H2O pKa = pKb = 15.7 (not 14). However bases are always cited nowadays
> as the pKa of their conjugate acid; this can be confusing if you don't
> know.
>
> Andrew Usher

pKa of H3O+ is -1.7
I am familiar with concept of conjugated bases/acids.


--
Poutnik
Poutnik
2010-11-22 07:07:44 UTC
Permalink
In article <9f30de37-47fd-4840-b709-b49bd5fd6929
@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, ***@yahoo.com says...
>
>
> There is nothing special about water but that the pKa scale was
> defined based on the pH scale in water. The pKa of H3O+ = 0 by
> definition and the pKb of OH- = 0 for the same reason. This gives for
> H2O pKa = pKb = 15.7 (not 14). However bases are always cited nowadays
> as the pKa of their conjugate acid; this can be confusing if you don't
> know.
>
You are right in pKa of H2O is 15.7.

--
Poutnik
Sci Tech
2010-11-24 07:37:29 UTC
Permalink
On 22.11.2010 02:52 AM, Andrew Usher wrote:
> On Nov 21, 11:33 pm, Poutnik<***@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> It is rather you did not fully catch the topic.
>
> No, it is you that is still confused.
>
>> Kw / pKw for water, being amphiprotic solvent
>> is a very special case of Ka / pKa for water being acid
>> and Kb / pKb for water being a base.

Without going away from the original topic - Measuring acidity - You
need to know exactly the medium type in which you are measuring the pH.
The 0-14 scale works well even with a slight deviation from pure water.

I was once measuring pH in 50% alcohol, the pH scale was not 0-14
because for the simple reason the quantity of pKw (give it another
subscript for this medium) has changed. The scale will then be defined
by the value of the new pKw.

In all exact pH measurements (specifically in concentration scale), you
are adding a supporting electrolyte to the medium. When measuring pH in
activity scale (specifically when using pH standards), there is a
variable amount of error because the calibration medium is different
from the sample medium. Anyway, NIST is trying hard to minimize this
error by selling pH standards specific to given medium such as sea
water, blood, etc... This is a good practice, but will not totally
eliminate the error because the type of ions in both the calibration and
sample medium are usually different.
>
> There is nothing special about water but that the pKa scale was
> defined based on the pH scale in water.

This is not absolutely correct. You can calculate pKa (and still call
them pKa) in any medium that is not pure water (e.g., 0.1M NaCl, 1M
KNO3, 50% alcohol, etc...) as long as the following definition holds for
the equilibrium of a weak acid HA

HA + H2O <==> H3O+ + A- (OR simply HA <==> H+ + A-)

Ka = [H+][A-]/[HA]

This is not mentioned in elementary chemistry books but you can find
values of pKa in different medium other than pure water (in which pKw is
not equal to 14) in the literature.

> The pKa of H3O+ = 0 by
> definition and the pKb of OH- = 0 for the same reason. This gives for
> H2O pKa = pKb = 15.7 (not 14). However bases are always cited nowadays
> as the pKa of their conjugate acid; this can be confusing if you don't
> know.
>

Nice elementary chemistry. All you did here is divide Kw (1x10-14) by
the molar concentration of water. In previous posting, I standardized
the subscript (in order to read pKw) so nobody gets confused.

Anyway, you find it the hard way. What you did is divide the Kw of pure
water (1x10-14) by a constant; the molar concentration of water (an
almost constant value in aqueous solution). If it is not pure water, the
pKa of water will not be 15.7. That is why no one in the practical world
is using the pKa of water as you define it but the pKw.

But to help you understand your main question:

"I understand this, but not why this causes the electrode voltage to
change. I assumed by pKa' you meant some deviation from the correct
(water-equivalent) reading."

My answer at the time was:

"The Ka is a measured quantity that reflects the change in the solution
equilibrium on going for instance from pure water to 0.1M NaCl to 50%
alcohol, etc... It is not this quantity that cause the potential of the
solution to change."

This answer holds whether it is Ka or Kw because both quantities change
with the medium type. I explained this clearly, together with Poutnik,
in previous posting. The answer was specific to the topic we are
discussing - Measuring acidity - Off course, different weak acids will
have different pKa values.

You are welcome.

Regards,

SK
















> Andrew Usher
Sci Tech
2010-11-23 07:13:59 UTC
Permalink
On 21.11.2010 10:13 PM, Andrew Usher wrote:
> Both you and Scitech appear unable to distinguish the concept of pKa
> from the ion product of water. They are defined to be equal for pure
> water at 25 C (which is admittedly confusing) but are not the same
> thing. Hence my proposal to measure them in different units.

Sorry, Poutnik and I went slightly beyond the level you expected and
presented more advanced material. I thought at first you were following
well. I was just trying to clarify your main question.
>
> Andrew Usher
Sci Tech
2010-11-20 19:51:16 UTC
Permalink
On 20.11.2010 11:11 AM, Poutnik wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 19, 5:34 am, Sci Tech<***@tsolver.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The Ka is a measured quantity that reflects the change in the solution
>>> equilibrium on going for instance from pure water to 0.1M NaCl to 50%
>>> alcohol, etc... It is not this quantity that cause the potential of the
>>> solution to change.
>
> Ka in electrochemistry
> is dissociation constant of acids,
> a kind of equilibrium constant.

OK

>
> Water simultaneously acts as weak acid and weak base.
>
> Equilibrium for water keeps constant
> c(H+) x c(OH-) = Ka
> where c is concentration in mol/liter.
> (More exactly, it is valid for activities)

Better replace Ka by Kw (ion-product constant of water) so the general
readers don't get confused.
>
> If taken as negative decadic logarithms, you get
> pH + pOH = pKa

Again, make it pKw (not pKa)

>
> Ka for H2O is 10^-14 for 25deg C, pKa is 14.( I guess 13.98, not handy )
> Ka grows ( pKa gets lower) with temparature, as far as water is more
> dissociated.
> Ka / pKa does not depend on solution composition.

I disagree. Kw and Ka (working in concentration scale) depend on
solution composition.

Here are the values of pKw at 25oC in:

Pure water: 13.99
0.1M KCl: 13.78
1M KCl: 13.80
2M KCl: 13.96
3M KCl 14.17

All Ka, Kb, Kw (simply K) vary with solution composition in
concentration scale (and also in activity scale).

Moreover, you have the same behavior on going from pure water to
water/alcohol mixture.

The literature is full of references concerning the variation of K with
the ionic strength. In addition, values of K in aqueous/non-aqueous
mixtures.

Regards,

SK
>
Poutnik
2010-11-20 21:51:21 UTC
Permalink
In article <ic98ri$m9e$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>
>
> Better replace Ka by Kw (ion-product constant of water) so the general
> readers don't get confused.
> >
I have already corrected myself. :-)
>
>
> I disagree. Kw and Ka (working in concentration scale) depend on
> solution composition.
> ......
> All Ka, Kb, Kw (simply K) vary with solution composition in
> concentration scale (and also in activity scale).
>
> Moreover, you have the same behavior on going from pure water to
> water/alcohol mixture.
>
I have in my previous posts already mentioned,

why Kw - written at that time as Ka(H2O)
( what is not wrong, as far as H2O is an acid )

is changing for both concentration scale ( because of gamma )
and activity scale ( because of changing water activity,
that is not reflected in usual simple ion activity multiplication )

In fact there are 2 things
Real thermodynamic constant which does not change
and usual mathematic formula, not covering variable parameters.


--
Poutnik
Sci Tech
2010-11-20 19:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Small correction will clarify your misunderstanding, Kw is the
ion-product constant of water not Ka, so please substitute Kw for Ka
(although if you say Ka for water, it is understandable but perhaps not
very common and it gives the same result). Ka is the acid dissociation
constant.

For professionals in this field, they use the word stability constant
(Beta - and defined as association and not dissociation) so not to add
in every time the subscript a in Ka or b in Kb (base dissociation constant).

The rest is ok, I shall respond to poutnik soon.

Back to my first answer to you:

"pH scale in aqueous solutions from 0-14 is limited by the pKa of water
at a given temperature (usually taken at 25oC)"

You see I mentioned pKa for water (or more common pKw). To define the
correct pH scale in any medium deviating largely from pure water, you
need to know the exact value of Kw, especially if you are working in
concentration (that is more common) and not activity.

Regards,

SK

On 20.11.2010 01:55 AM, Andrew Usher wrote:
> On Nov 19, 5:34 am, Sci Tech<***@tsolver.net> wrote:
>
>> The Ka is a measured quantity that reflects the change in the solution
>> equilibrium on going for instance from pure water to 0.1M NaCl to 50%
>> alcohol, etc... It is not this quantity that cause the potential of the
>> solution to change.
>
> <etc. etc. etc.>
>
> It's obvious you don't really understand this. pKa means one thing in
> chemistry, and this isn't it.
>
> Andrew Usher
Poutnik
2010-11-20 21:33:51 UTC
Permalink
In article <ic9748$fih$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>
> Small correction will clarify your misunderstanding, Kw is the
> ion-product constant of water not Ka, so please substitute Kw for Ka
> (although if you say Ka for water, it is understandable but perhaps not
> very common and it gives the same result). Ka is the acid dissociation
> constant.
>
You are obviously right.
I was just following the naming in thread,
not realizing myself at the moment,
I should use Kw / pKw,
as Kw = Ka(H2O) = Kb(H20)

--
Poutnik
Sci Tech
2010-11-21 07:11:04 UTC
Permalink
On 20.11.2010 11:33 PM, Poutnik wrote:
> In article<ic9748$fih$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>>
>> Small correction will clarify your misunderstanding, Kw is the
>> ion-product constant of water not Ka, so please substitute Kw for Ka
>> (although if you say Ka for water, it is understandable but perhaps not
>> very common and it gives the same result). Ka is the acid dissociation
>> constant.
>>
> You are obviously right.
> I was just following the naming in thread,
> not realizing myself at the moment,
> I should use Kw / pKw,
> as Kw = Ka(H2O) = Kb(H20)

Sorry, this answer was meant to Andrew not you. I guess there was
something wrong in the order of the threads. Anyway, I also did the same
thing by following the name in the thread. The original question of
Andrew was about pH scale and why there is a change in the solution
potential and then he introduced the pKa and its relation to the
problem. So this was partly explained by involving Ka (for water) or Kw now.

Thanks anyway, nice discussing this matter with you.

Regards,

SK
>
poutnik
2010-11-21 08:45:18 UTC
Permalink
In article <icagm6$oie$***@speranza.aioe.org>, ***@tsolver.net says...
>
>
> Thanks anyway, nice discussing this matter with you.
>
> Regards,
>
> SK

You are welcome, pleasure to me too.
Not so common to read pleasent english
on usenet these days.


--
Poutnik
Loading...