Discussion:
Chelation with EDTA
(too old to reply)
JD
2013-03-29 01:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Would someone please answer the following three questions about the chelation
compound Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). This is for my personal
knowledge and is not for any exam or homework.

1. If an aqueous solution of EDTA is poured into another aqueous solution
containing a metal compound (such as Iron sulfate), does the EDTA separate the
Iron ions from the sulfate ions by binding just to the Iron ions and the sulfate
ions remain behind in the aqueous solution?

2. Does the metallic compound that is to be sequestered by EDTA have to be in a
solution like water that separates the compound into ions before it can be
sequestered by EDTA? Can EDTA work in an ethanol solution containing an
organo-metallic compound if the ethanol solution does not dissolve or
disassociates the compound into ions.

3. Lets say that we have a trace amount (picogram) of a chemical compound on the
surface of paper in chromatography that we need to locate. But because of its
trace amount, its optical density precludes a color reaction that we can see
with the naked eye. Can EDTA be used as a bridge to attach itself (bind) to the
trace amount of chemical compound and concurrently to a larger amount of another
chemical compound that can readily give a color reaction with a reagent. In this
way, the trace amount of chemical compound (which is too limited in amount to
give a color reaction that can be seen with the unaided human eye) can be
detected and located by a color reagent reaction with the larger attached
compound? In other words, can EDTA serves as a bridge or connection between the
two different chemical compounds such that the color reaction to one compound be
used to detect and thus locate a smaller picogram compound on a paper substrate?


Any help would be apprecaited!

JD
Bodo Mysliwietz
2013-04-02 19:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by JD
Would someone please answer the following three questions about the chelation
compound Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). This is for my personal
knowledge and is not for any exam or homework.
<laugh> It's Ok ;-)
Post by JD
1. If an aqueous solution of EDTA is poured into another aqueous solution
containing a metal compound (such as Iron sulfate), does the EDTA separate the
Iron ions from the sulfate ions by binding just to the Iron ions
EDTA encloses the metal ions.

It's German website but one figure should tell more than thousand words:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelatkomplexe
Post by JD
and the sulfate
ions remain behind in the aqueous solution?
Yes.
Post by JD
2. Does the metallic compound that is to be sequestered by EDTA have to be in a
solution like water that separates the compound into ions before it can be
sequestered by EDTA?
I am not specialist for inorganic chemistry but i guess you are on right.
Post by JD
Can EDTA work in an ethanol solution containing an
organo-metallic compound if the ethanol solution does not dissolve or
disassociates the compound into ions.
I don't think so.
Post by JD
3. Lets say that we have a trace amount (picogram) of a chemical compound on the
surface of paper in chromatography that we need to locate. But because of its
trace amount, its optical density precludes a color reaction that we can see
with the naked eye. Can EDTA be used as a bridge to attach itself (bind) to the
trace amount of chemical compound and concurrently to a larger amount of another
chemical compound that can readily give a color reaction with a reagent. In this
way, the trace amount of chemical compound (which is too limited in amount to
give a color reaction that can be seen with the unaided human eye) can be
detected and located by a color reagent reaction with the larger attached
compound?
For some metal other reagant can be used. I remember a very sensitive
proof for Aluminum using Morin in Acetic Acid and ultraviolet light.
Post by JD
In other words, can EDTA serves as a bridge or connection between the
two different chemical compounds such that the color reaction to one compound be
used to detect and thus locate a smaller picogram compound on a paper substrate?
To make a long story short: You want to use EDTA as a kind of intensifier?!
Post by JD
Any help would be apprecaited!
Because it is a quite interesting question i do cross post to German
speaking group. It's a little bit more traffic over there - and the
chance is good that the friend try to answer in english.
--
Glück Auf - Bodo Mysliwietz
----------------------------------------
http://www.labortechniker.de/
JD
2013-04-03 23:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bodo Mysliwietz
Post by JD
Would someone please answer the following three questions about the chelation
compound Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). This is for my personal
knowledge and is not for any exam or homework.
<laugh> It's Ok ;-)
Post by JD
1. If an aqueous solution of EDTA is poured into another aqueous solution
containing a metal compound (such as Iron sulfate), does the EDTA separate the
Iron ions from the sulfate ions by binding just to the Iron ions
EDTA encloses the metal ions.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelatkomplexe
Post by JD
and the sulfate
ions remain behind in the aqueous solution?
Yes.
Post by JD
2. Does the metallic compound that is to be sequestered by EDTA have to be in a
solution like water that separates the compound into ions before it can be
sequestered by EDTA?
I am not specialist for inorganic chemistry but i guess you are on right.
Post by JD
Can EDTA work in an ethanol solution containing an
organo-metallic compound if the ethanol solution does not dissolve or
disassociates the compound into ions.
I don't think so.
Post by JD
3. Lets say that we have a trace amount (picogram) of a chemical compound on the
surface of paper in chromatography that we need to locate. But because of its
trace amount, its optical density precludes a color reaction that we can see
with the naked eye. Can EDTA be used as a bridge to attach itself (bind) to the
trace amount of chemical compound and concurrently to a larger amount of another
chemical compound that can readily give a color reaction with a reagent. In this
way, the trace amount of chemical compound (which is too limited in amount to
give a color reaction that can be seen with the unaided human eye) can be
detected and located by a color reagent reaction with the larger attached
compound?
For some metal other reagant can be used. I remember a very sensitive
proof for Aluminum using Morin in Acetic Acid and ultraviolet light.
Post by JD
In other words, can EDTA serves as a bridge or connection between the
two different chemical compounds such that the color reaction to one compound be
used to detect and thus locate a smaller picogram compound on a paper substrate?
To make a long story short: You want to use EDTA as a kind of intensifier?!
Post by JD
Any help would be apprecaited!
Because it is a quite interesting question i do cross post to German
speaking group. It's a little bit more traffic over there - and the
chance is good that the friend try to answer in english.
JD
2013-04-03 23:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bodo Mysliwietz
Post by JD
Would someone please answer the following three questions about the chelation
compound Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). This is for my personal
knowledge and is not for any exam or homework.
<laugh> It's Ok ;-)
Post by JD
1. If an aqueous solution of EDTA is poured into another aqueous solution
containing a metal compound (such as Iron sulfate), does the EDTA separate the
Iron ions from the sulfate ions by binding just to the Iron ions
EDTA encloses the metal ions.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelatkomplexe
Post by JD
and the sulfate
ions remain behind in the aqueous solution?
Yes.
Post by JD
2. Does the metallic compound that is to be sequestered by EDTA have to be in a
solution like water that separates the compound into ions before it can be
sequestered by EDTA?
I am not specialist for inorganic chemistry but i guess you are on right.
Post by JD
Can EDTA work in an ethanol solution containing an
organo-metallic compound if the ethanol solution does not dissolve or
disassociates the compound into ions.
I don't think so.
Post by JD
3. Lets say that we have a trace amount (picogram) of a chemical compound on the
surface of paper in chromatography that we need to locate. But because of its
trace amount, its optical density precludes a color reaction that we can see
with the naked eye. Can EDTA be used as a bridge to attach itself (bind) to the
trace amount of chemical compound and concurrently to a larger amount of another
chemical compound that can readily give a color reaction with a reagent. In this
way, the trace amount of chemical compound (which is too limited in amount to
give a color reaction that can be seen with the unaided human eye) can be
detected and located by a color reagent reaction with the larger attached
compound?
For some metal other reagant can be used. I remember a very sensitive
proof for Aluminum using Morin in Acetic Acid and ultraviolet light.
Post by JD
In other words, can EDTA serves as a bridge or connection between the
two different chemical compounds such that the color reaction to one compound be
used to detect and thus locate a smaller picogram compound on a paper substrate?
To make a long story short: You want to use EDTA as a kind of intensifier?!
Post by JD
Any help would be apprecaited!
Because it is a quite interesting question i do cross post to German
speaking group. It's a little bit more traffic over there - and the
chance is good that the friend try to answer in english.
JD
2013-04-03 23:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bodo Mysliwietz
Post by JD
Would someone please answer the following three questions about the chelation
compound Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). This is for my personal
knowledge and is not for any exam or homework.
<laugh> It's Ok ;-)
Post by JD
1. If an aqueous solution of EDTA is poured into another aqueous solution
containing a metal compound (such as Iron sulfate), does the EDTA separate the
Iron ions from the sulfate ions by binding just to the Iron ions
EDTA encloses the metal ions.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelatkomplexe
Post by JD
and the sulfate
ions remain behind in the aqueous solution?
Yes.
Post by JD
2. Does the metallic compound that is to be sequestered by EDTA have to be in a
solution like water that separates the compound into ions before it can be
sequestered by EDTA?
I am not specialist for inorganic chemistry but i guess you are on right.
Post by JD
Can EDTA work in an ethanol solution containing an
organo-metallic compound if the ethanol solution does not dissolve or
disassociates the compound into ions.
I don't think so.
Post by JD
3. Lets say that we have a trace amount (picogram) of a chemical compound on the
surface of paper in chromatography that we need to locate. But because of its
trace amount, its optical density precludes a color reaction that we can see
with the naked eye. Can EDTA be used as a bridge to attach itself (bind) to the
trace amount of chemical compound and concurrently to a larger amount of another
chemical compound that can readily give a color reaction with a reagent. In this
way, the trace amount of chemical compound (which is too limited in amount to
give a color reaction that can be seen with the unaided human eye) can be
detected and located by a color reagent reaction with the larger attached
compound?
For some metal other reagant can be used. I remember a very sensitive
proof for Aluminum using Morin in Acetic Acid and ultraviolet light.
Post by JD
In other words, can EDTA serves as a bridge or connection between the
two different chemical compounds such that the color reaction to one compound be
used to detect and thus locate a smaller picogram compound on a paper substrate?
To make a long story short: You want to use EDTA as a kind of intensifier?!
Post by JD
Any help would be apprecaited!
Because it is a quite interesting question i do cross post to German
speaking group. It's a little bit more traffic over there - and the
chance is good that the friend try to answer in english.
JD
2013-04-04 00:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bodo Mysliwietz
Post by JD
Would someone please answer the following three questions about the chelation
compound Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). This is for my personal
knowledge and is not for any exam or homework.
<laugh> It's Ok ;-)
Post by JD
1. If an aqueous solution of EDTA is poured into another aqueous solution
containing a metal compound (such as Iron sulfate), does the EDTA separate the
Iron ions from the sulfate ions by binding just to the Iron ions
EDTA encloses the metal ions.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelatkomplexe
Post by JD
and the sulfate
ions remain behind in the aqueous solution?
Yes.
Post by JD
2. Does the metallic compound that is to be sequestered by EDTA have to be in a
solution like water that separates the compound into ions before it can be
sequestered by EDTA?
I am not specialist for inorganic chemistry but i guess you are on right.
Post by JD
Can EDTA work in an ethanol solution containing an
organo-metallic compound if the ethanol solution does not dissolve or
disassociates the compound into ions.
I don't think so.
Post by JD
3. Lets say that we have a trace amount (picogram) of a chemical compound on the
surface of paper in chromatography that we need to locate. But because of its
trace amount, its optical density precludes a color reaction that we can see
with the naked eye. Can EDTA be used as a bridge to attach itself (bind) to the
trace amount of chemical compound and concurrently to a larger amount of another
chemical compound that can readily give a color reaction with a reagent. In this
way, the trace amount of chemical compound (which is too limited in amount to
give a color reaction that can be seen with the unaided human eye) can be
detected and located by a color reagent reaction with the larger attached
compound?
For some metal other reagant can be used. I remember a very sensitive
proof for Aluminum using Morin in Acetic Acid and ultraviolet light.
Post by JD
In other words, can EDTA serves as a bridge or connection between the
two different chemical compounds such that the color reaction to one compound be
used to detect and thus locate a smaller picogram compound on a paper substrate?
To make a long story short: You want to use EDTA as a kind of intensifier?!
Post by JD
Any help would be apprecaited!
Because it is a quite interesting question i do cross post to German
speaking group. It's a little bit more traffic over there - and the
chance is good that the friend try to answer in english.
Bodo Mysliwietz
2013-04-09 19:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Am 02.04.2013 21:01, schrieb Bodo Mysliwietz:

Hallo Freunde,
Post by Bodo Mysliwietz
Post by JD
3. Lets say that we have a trace amount (picogram) of a chemical compound on the
surface of paper in chromatography that we need to locate. But because of its
trace amount, its optical density precludes a color reaction that we can see
with the naked eye. Can EDTA be used as a bridge to attach itself (bind) to the
trace amount of chemical compound and concurrently to a larger amount of another
chemical compound that can readily give a color reaction with a reagent. In this
way, the trace amount of chemical compound (which is too limited in amount to
give a color reaction that can be seen with the unaided human eye) can be
detected and located by a color reagent reaction with the larger attached
compound?
For some metal other reagant can be used. I remember a very sensitive
proof for Aluminum using Morin in Acetic Acid and ultraviolet light.
Post by JD
In other words, can EDTA serves as a bridge or connection between the
two different chemical compounds such that the color reaction to one compound be
used to detect and thus locate a smaller picogram compound on a paper substrate?
To make a long story short: You want to use EDTA as a kind of intensifier?!
Post by JD
Any help would be apprecaited!
Because it is a quite interesting question i do cross post to German
speaking group. It's a little bit more traffic over there - and the
chance is good that the friend try to answer in english.
Hallo Freunde,

der Verfasser des Postings (John) hat leider Probleme auf newsserver
zuzugreifen (zu psoten). Mit seinem Deutsch ist es auch schlecht
bestellt. John fragte mich per eMail ob doch jemand etwas zu Punkt 3
sagen könnte?

John geht es tatsächlich darum ob EDTA oder gar eine andere Substanz
eingesetzt werden könnte um die Empfindlichkeit (Nachweisgrenze) zu
erhöhen. Quasi nach dem Prinzip: Wir docken ein Molekül an, an das
wiederum andere Substanzen (mehrfach) gebunden werden können. Der
Nachweis soll visuell erfolgen.

Für die guten Anorganiker mit fehlenden Englischkenntnissen. Es geht um
Spuren (Picogramm) von Metallen (Eisen??) auf Papier die sichtbar
gemacht werden sollen?
--
Glück Auf - Bodo Mysliwietz
----------------------------------------
http://www.labortechniker.de/
Martin
2013-04-10 03:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Hallo Bodo,
Post by Bodo Mysliwietz
John geht es tatsächlich darum ob EDTA oder gar eine andere Substanz
eingesetzt werden könnte um die Empfindlichkeit (Nachweisgrenze) zu
erhöhen. Quasi nach dem Prinzip: Wir docken ein Molekül an, an das
wiederum andere Substanzen (mehrfach) gebunden werden können. Der
Nachweis soll visuell erfolgen.
Für die guten Anorganiker mit fehlenden Englischkenntnissen. Es geht um
Spuren (Picogramm) von Metallen (Eisen??) auf Papier die sichtbar
gemacht werden sollen?
Könnte - sicherlich. Mit einiger Sicherheit könnte man das sogar
elementspezifisch hinkriegen (einfach Farbstoff ans entsprechende Chelat
koppeln). Mir ist aber nicht bekannt, ob es schon jemand gemacht hat.
Aber ich bin ja nicht nur kein Anorganiker, sondern auch schon seit Jahre
aus der Materie raus...

Tschüs,
Martin
gUnther nanonüm
2013-04-10 16:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bodo Mysliwietz
Für die guten Anorganiker mit fehlenden Englischkenntnissen. Es geht um
Spuren (Picogramm) von Metallen (Eisen??) auf Papier die sichtbar gemacht
werden sollen?
Hi,
beim nächsten Forensiker etwas Luminol abstauben?
--
mfg,
gUnther
Bodo Mysliwietz
2013-04-14 11:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by gUnther nanonüm
Post by Bodo Mysliwietz
Für die guten Anorganiker mit fehlenden Englischkenntnissen. Es geht um
Spuren (Picogramm) von Metallen (Eisen??) auf Papier die sichtbar gemacht
werden sollen?
Hi,
beim nächsten Forensiker etwas Luminol abstauben?
Keine Ahnung ob es geht. Zumindest stellt es eine Option zur Recherche
an, die allerdings nicht viel mit EDTA zu tun hat, was vermutlich auch
nicht für John zwingend ist.

@John: Depending on your application it was recommended to check once
for the catalytic oxidation of Luminol (CAS 521-31-3) forced by trace of
Iron (or Cupper) as done by forensic experts.

Please refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminol

as well....
http://freepaulcortez.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/increasing_the_specificty_of_the_forensic_test_for_blood.pdf

HTH
--
Glück Auf - Bodo Mysliwietz
----------------------------------------
http://www.labortechniker.de/
Patrick Kibies
2013-04-10 10:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi JD,

Bodo posted, that you're still looking for an answer. So I'll try my very
best. But I'm neither an inorganic chemistrian nor an expert for trace
analysis of heavy metals. But let's give it a bash.
Post by JD
3. Lets say that we have a trace amount (picogram) of a chemical compound
on the surface of paper in chromatography that we need to locate. But
because of its trace amount, its optical density precludes a color
reaction that we can see with the naked eye.
The fiest question is: Why do you want to do it with the naked eye. I just
imagine some fluorescent marker, which could just be visualized by
illumination with UV-Ligt. I don't know if there are any chelating agents,
which are fluorescent. The main Problem I see, is that chelation would
increase solubility of your compound dramatically - it just would dissolve
or dislocate.
Post by JD
Can EDTA be used as a bridge
to attach itself (bind) to the trace amount of chemical compound and
concurrently to a larger amount of another chemical compound that can
readily give a color reaction with a reagent.
I think there are chelating ligands, which can do such stuff. But I'm not an
organic chemist.
Post by JD
In this way, the trace
amount of chemical compound (which is too limited in amount to give a
color reaction that can be seen with the unaided human eye) can be
detected and located by a color reagent reaction with the larger attached
compound? In other words, can EDTA serves as a bridge or connection
between the two different chemical compounds such that the color reaction
to one compound be used to detect and thus locate a smaller picogram
compound on a paper substrate?
As mentioned above: I fear chelation will remove your stuff from the paper.
Why do you need it on the paper? Maybe there is an easier way to do your
job...



regards

Patrick
Loading...