Sodium content of McDonald's French Fries

Hi

I'm an analyst and one-time MacD's employee (in the UK) - I think your
major problem is that the salt is shaken over the fries once they are
cooked... in my experience the amount of salt was a matter of chance and
the heavy-handedness of the fries person... sometimes fries would be
encrusted and sometimes totally devoid of salt. It was also quite common
for people to ask for fries with no salt added...
I think that is more of a problem than the analysis of NaCl....

Helen

Post by PaladinDave
Greetings,
I am a student in Malaysia researching the amount of sodium chloride
in Mcdonald's French Fries. I hope to carry this out through
experimentation. Does anyone know of any simple lab techniques to
quantitatively determine the amount of sodium ions in a substance?
Doing this for chlorine ions is relatively easy, but my research thus
far has lead me to conclude that there are no insoluble sodium salts,
and so I am clueless as to how to proceed.
Thank you.
PaladinDave

Marvin Margoshes

2004-06-22 16:01:49 UTC

There are no good wet-chemical methods to measure sodium. The methods that
work are flame photometry and electrochemistry with a sodium ion-sensitive
electrode (ISE).

Andy T-B

2004-06-23 12:35:21 UTC

Sodium can be determined gravimetrically using the reagent Zinc Uranyl
Acetate. A method is decribed in:
physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/UR/uranyl_zinc_acetate.html

Marvin Margoshes

2004-06-23 18:21:35 UTC

Post by Andy T-B
Sodium can be determined gravimetrically using the reagent Zinc Uranyl
physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/UR/uranyl_zinc_acetate.html

That is an old method, before there were any alternatives. It gets worse as
the Na concentration goes down, because the solubility product of the
precipitate is rather high.

Don Shelly

2004-06-23 19:41:40 UTC

I think that the easiest procedure would be (with the permission of
the local McDonald's)to measure the mass of the french fries, the mass
of the salt shaker before adding to the fries and the mass of the salt
shaker after adding the salt to the fries. You could then calculate
the mass of salt per unit french fry. Measure several trials and
apply statistics for better results.

Bruce Sinclair

2004-06-23 20:07:15 UTC

Post by Don Shelly
I think that the easiest procedure would be (with the permission of
the local McDonald's)to measure the mass of the french fries, the mass
of the salt shaker before adding to the fries and the mass of the salt
shaker after adding the salt to the fries. You could then calculate
the mass of salt per unit french fry. Measure several trials and
apply statistics for better results.

This method applies immediate bias to the results (or could); knowing
you are being watched or measured affects behaviour :)

Bruce

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the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

Bob

2004-06-24 01:35:17 UTC

Much of the salt added does not go to the fries.

probably good idea to collect the salt from the bottom of the pan, and
subtract it.

bob

Mohammed Farooq

2004-06-24 14:48:33 UTC

Post by Marvin Margoshes

There are no good wet-chemical methods to measure sodium. The methods that
work are flame photometry and electrochemistry with a sodium ion-sensitive
electrode (ISE).

Why don't you gravimetrically determine the chloride content assuming
that all chloride comes from the added salt, or you can use flame
photometry along with atomic absorption technique (AAS) to compare the
results of salt content in French fries. You can also indirectly
determine chloride by AAS. The "cook-book" provided by Perkin-Elmer
AAS or any other make would give a general outline for sodium
analysis in foods. Consult specialized works such AOAC (Association of
Analytical Communities) methods for the determination of sodium in
foods if you want perfection in your results.

PaladinDave

2004-06-25 16:22:53 UTC

Ok... thanks everyone. I'm doing an extended essay in Chemistry for
the International Baccalaureate Diploma. That means that much as it
may or may not be easier to simply observe the amount of salt that was
added, I have to use chemical techniques to determine the amount of
salt. There would be salt in the uncooked, unsalted french fries
anyway. I expect that the amount of salt added each time will vary,
and therefore I will need to take many samples. This would help me
determine the extent to which actual salt content of the fries will
deviate from the McDonald's Nutritional information values.

What I have roughly thus far is as such:
1. Dissolve french fries in water.
2. Filter off undisolved matter.
3. Add strontium nitrate solution to filtrate. This should remove
oxalates.
4. Filter off precipitate.
5. Add palladium (II) nitrate solution to the filtrate. This should
remove thiocyanates.
6. Filter off precipitate.
7. Add barium nitrate solution to the filtrates. This should remove
sulphates.
8. Filter off precipitate.
9. Add bismuth nitrate solution to the filtrate. This should remove
iodides.
10. Filter off precipitate.
11. Add mercury (II) nitrate solution to the filtrate. This shoud
remove bromides.
12. Filter off precipitate.
13. Add mercury (I) nitrate solution to the filtrate. This should
precipitate out mercury chloride.
14. Filter off precipitate. Leave to dry
15. Weigh precipiate to determine mass. Use mass to determine the
number of moles of chloride.

Hopefully, all of this chloride will be from the sodium chloride.
Hopefully, no other ions I have not mentioned will be present in the
french fries and precipiate out with the addition of mercury (I)
nitrate).

Will the addition of mercury (II) nitrate cause any precipitation of
mercury (I) chloride? I suspect that it could follow the reaction:
2Hg2+ + 2Cl- -> 2Hg+ + Cl2

Unfortunately, my school lab does not have that much sophisticated
equipment e.g. no mass spectrometer, no spectroscope. I don't think I
would be able to carry out atomic absorption techniques under these
circumstances, nor use flame photometry. As nice as it would be to use
zinc uranyl acetate, I will probably be dealing with small quantities
of sodium, and I don't think I can get my hands on any zinc uranyl
acetate. Then again, it will be hard to get palladium nitrate, bismuth
nitrate and strontium nitrate.

Thanks everyone for sharing your expertise. If I can't implement it in
part of my method, it can certainly count towards the ideal method I
would be writing up in my essay.

Thanks
PaladinDave

Mohammed Farooq

2004-06-25 17:40:23 UTC

Post by PaladinDave
1. Dissolve french fries in water.
2. Filter off undisolved matter.
3. Add strontium nitrate solution to filtrate. This should remove
oxalates.
4. Filter off precipitate.
5. Add palladium (II) nitrate solution to the filtrate. This should
remove thiocyanates.
6. Filter off precipitate.
7. Add barium nitrate solution to the filtrates. This should remove
sulphates.
8. Filter off precipitate.
9. Add bismuth nitrate solution to the filtrate. This should remove
iodides.
10. Filter off precipitate.
11. Add mercury (II) nitrate solution to the filtrate. This shoud
remove bromides.
12. Filter off precipitate.
13. Add mercury (I) nitrate solution to the filtrate. This should
precipitate out mercury chloride.
14. Filter off precipitate. Leave to dry
15. Weigh precipiate to determine mass. Use mass to determine the
number of moles of chloride.
Hopefully, all of this chloride will be from the sodium chloride.
Hopefully, no other ions I have not mentioned will be present in the
french fries and precipiate out with the addition of mercury (I)
nitrate).
Will the addition of mercury (II) nitrate cause any precipitation of
2Hg2+ + 2Cl- -> 2Hg+ + Cl2
Unfortunately, my school lab does not have that much sophisticated
equipment e.g. no mass spectrometer, no spectroscope. I don't think I
would be able to carry out atomic absorption techniques under these
circumstances, nor use flame photometry.

If you don't mind, I feel that this protocol (method) for determining
salt content would be wasting too many expensive reagents like mercury
and palladium salts and involve toxic compounds. Similarly bismuth
would present too many complications since it also forms insoluble
complexes in water. The more reagents you add the more contamination
you would be adding until and unless you are using highly purified
reagents.

I think your work would be simplified if you make certain assumptions,
as I assume your research report would not be demanding very high
accuracy in absence of instrumental techniques. Make certain
assumptions in your analysis:
1. There are no thiocyanates in French Fries.
2. The amount of sulfate is negligible.
3. Iodide/bromides ions can also be ignored ( can be removed by a
suitable oxidising agent instead of removing them by precipitation.)
4. Remove oxalates (if any) by a oxidizing agent say by concentrated
nitric acid.

If you insist on detecting these anions in the solution obtained by
(lets call it) "French Fries Solution", first do sensitive qualitative
tests for these anions. This would not take more than 10 minutes. A
good source for sensitive qualitative test is Fiegel "Spot Tests". If
those ions are absent delete that step in your analysis. Or try to
acquire the services of commercial laboratory for determining sodium.
Essentially you are determining chloride content, and then you would
indirectly calculate the chloride as sodium chloride. Why don't you
simply use silver nitrate for chloride content by working on these
assumptions.
See if this helps: http://www.aer.wsu.edu/FTP/CHEM%20222/CHEM222MANUAL/CHEM%20222%2010.5%20EXPT%202.pdf

Barry

2004-06-29 01:56:14 UTC

Post by Mohammed Farooq
If you don't mind, I feel that this protocol (method) for determining
salt content would be wasting too many expensive reagents like mercury
and palladium salts and involve toxic compounds. Similarly bismuth
would present too many complications since it also forms insoluble
complexes in water. The more reagents you add the more contamination
you would be adding until and unless you are using highly purified
reagents.
I think your work would be simplified if you make certain assumptions,
as I assume your research report would not be demanding very high
accuracy in absence of instrumental techniques. Make certain
1. There are no thiocyanates in French Fries.
2. The amount of sulfate is negligible.
3. Iodide/bromides ions can also be ignored ( can be removed by a
suitable oxidising agent instead of removing them by precipitation.)
4. Remove oxalates (if any) by a oxidizing agent say by concentrated
nitric acid.
If you insist on detecting these anions in the solution obtained by
(lets call it) "French Fries Solution", first do sensitive qualitative
tests for these anions. This would not take more than 10 minutes. A
good source for sensitive qualitative test is Fiegel "Spot Tests". If
those ions are absent delete that step in your analysis. Or try to
acquire the services of commercial laboratory for determining sodium.
Essentially you are determining chloride content, and then you would
indirectly calculate the chloride as sodium chloride. Why don't you
simply use silver nitrate for chloride content by working on these
assumptions.
See if this helps: http://www.aer.wsu.edu/FTP/CHEM%20222/CHEM222MANUAL/CHEM%20222%2010.5%20EXPT%202.pdf

In the vast majority of foods the chloride is almost exclusively from
sodium chloride - especially where salt is added. As suggested a
simple silver nitrate titration for chloride will give you a value
very close to the sodium chloride content. Or you can do a
precipitation of AgCl if you prefer.
Barry Hunt

Dave Palmer

2004-07-03 03:40:45 UTC

The original poster proposed (what I thought to be) a very
well-thought out approach, with one problem: there were too
many steps.

Remember, the total variance of your analytical method is
the sum of the variances of each step.

No matter how good your lab technique may be, small
errors are going to sneak in at each step. If you have
many steps, you will have many errors. This is not a
reflection on you, it's just a fact of existence.

If your goal were simply a qualitative determination of
whether or not there is sodium in McDonald's french fries,
then having a lot of steps to eliminate every possible
interference is a good idea. You could afford to lose
some sodium in each step, as long as you still had a
detectable amount in the end.

But since your goal is a quantitative determination of
how much sodium there is in McDonald's french fries, you
should try to keep the number of steps to an absolute
minimum. It would be unfortunate if you were to lose a
significant amount of sodium while trying to eliminate an
interference which turns out to be insignificant.

I would recommend that you think through your procedure
and eliminate all but the most important ones.

By the way, have you thought about a sampling procedure
to ensure that you will obtain a representative sample
of fries? For instance, have you thought about how many
samples you will need? Will they be collected at the
same time of day or different times of day? etc.

Just a few thoughts. Since it's been a while since you
posted your original message, you might have already
completed your project by now. If so, I hope you did
well.

Dave Palmer

bizzwire

2004-06-29 21:55:27 UTC

Hey! Here's a novel idea:

Doesn't every MacDonalds post in a prominent location, the nutritional
information for all their products?

If so, why not just go there and LOOK IT UP?

bizzwire

2004-07-04 13:40:34 UTC

Well, I did some additional research. I went to "Burger King" and looked
on the chart they have posted. The stated amount of Sodium in an order of
"unsalted" french fries was 260 mg of sodium. The value for "salted"
french fries was 410 mg.

Piece of cake.

Dave Palmer

2004-07-04 18:05:18 UTC

Post by bizzwire
Well, I did some additional research. I went to "Burger King" and looked
on the chart they have posted. The stated amount of Sodium in an order of
"unsalted" french fries was 260 mg of sodium. The value for "salted"
french fries was 410 mg.

As a famous movie actor once said: trust, but verify.

Dave Palmer

bizzwire

2004-07-04 18:42:02 UTC

As a famous movie actor once said: trust, but verify.
Dave Palmer

LOL...good point.

For ome reason, I just can't seem to let this go, and continue to think
about it, but this will be, I promise, my last post on the subject.

Dry your french fries and put a measured weight in a crucible.
Calcine at high temperature to remove al organic materials (starches,
sugars, oils, etc.)

Cool and dissolve a measured weight of the resulting ash ina measured volume
of water and measure the Na concentration with the selective
electrode...thingy .....that someone mentioned.

Dave Palmer

2004-07-05 19:42:56 UTC

Another thought, although the original poster appears to be
long gone: McDonald's and Burger King are required by U.S. law
to report the sodium content of their french fries.

Although I am not familiar with the food industry, I would
assume that there is a standard test method which they are
required to follow. It would not be very helpful to consumers
to know that brand A has X milligrams of sodium and brand B
has Y milligrams of sodium, if these numbers are obtained by
different methods.

Presumably the standard would be issued by FDA or USDA. It
should be a matter of public record, and should not be
difficult to obtain.

Now, it may be that the standard test method would require
instrumentation that the original poster does not have access
to; nevertheless, if he is going to compare the results he
obtains with the published values, he should be sure to discuss
the manner in which the published values were obtained.

By the way, this is a great high school project. I wish I
could say I was thinking about this sort of thing when I was
in high school. Unfortunately, at the time I was interested
in other kinds of "chemistry".

Dave Palmer

PaladinDave

2004-07-06 07:17:50 UTC

Ok, thanks everyone. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but if I
simply looked at the sodium content value that McDonald's provides,
then I couldn't possibly be getting good makrs for my essay. However,
if I conduct experiments then I should be able to demonstrate some
good chemical knowledge and technique. Unfortunately, however, because
of the limitations of my school lab I cannot do the perfect, ideal
method to determine the sodium contet (e.g. mass spectrometer). At the
moment I'm carrying out two methods:
- a colouremetric method using iron (III) mercury (II) thiocyanate
described here: http://www.nilu.no/projects/ccc/manual/documents/04_5-Determination%20of%20chloride%20in%20precipitation.htm
- and simply gravimetric determination of chloride content by
dissolving and filtering the french fries.

I will compare both methods and their effectiveness by comparing them
with standard solutions I have made. Then I will try them out on the
French Fries.

I'm not sure exactly how I will achieve a great sampling technique,
but I'll come up with something, and it won't end up being too
important if my sampling technique is perfect, because this is an
essay where the focus is on the chemistry rather than the statistical
issues involved. I will probably get samples on different days and
different times of day, and different McDonald's, and the size of my
sample will depend more than anything else on the amount of time I
have.

PaladinDave

beavith

2004-07-06 13:58:45 UTC

Post by PaladinDave
Ok, thanks everyone. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but if I
simply looked at the sodium content value that McDonald's provides,
then I couldn't possibly be getting good makrs for my essay. However,
if I conduct experiments then I should be able to demonstrate some
good chemical knowledge and technique. Unfortunately, however, because
of the limitations of my school lab I cannot do the perfect, ideal
method to determine the sodium contet (e.g. mass spectrometer). At the
- a colouremetric method using iron (III) mercury (II) thiocyanate
described here: http://www.nilu.no/projects/ccc/manual/documents/04_5-Determination%20of%20chloride%20in%20precipitation.htm
- and simply gravimetric determination of chloride content by
dissolving and filtering the french fries.

simplest method would be to calcine and do a gravimetric chloride
analysis on the ash with AgNO3, and report the result as NaCl.

you touch on the sampling error, which is going to impart huge
variability in the first place. the small amount of K that gets mixed
in or the small amount of Na lost to other ash anions (SO4, mainly)
would be negligible in comparison.

Post by PaladinDave
I will compare both methods and their effectiveness by comparing them
with standard solutions I have made. Then I will try them out on the
French Fries.
I'm not sure exactly how I will achieve a great sampling technique,

this is, by far, going to be your biggest variability.
reproducibility, unless you sample widely, will be suspect.

Post by PaladinDave
but I'll come up with something, and it won't end up being too
important if my sampling technique is perfect, because this is an
essay where the focus is on the chemistry rather than the statistical
issues involved. I will probably get samples on different days and
different times of day, and different McDonald's, and the size of my
sample will depend more than anything else on the amount of time I
have.
PaladinDave

Marvin Margoshes

2004-07-06 16:59:20 UTC

http://www.nilu.no/projects/ccc/manual/documents/04_5-Determination%20of%20chloride%20in%20precipitation.htm

Post by PaladinDave
- and simply gravimetric determination of chloride content by
dissolving and filtering the french fries.

simplest method would be to calcine and do a gravimetric chloride
analysis on the ash with AgNO3, and report the result as NaCl.
you touch on the sampling error, which is going to impart huge
variability in the first place. the small amount of K that gets mixed
in or the small amount of Na lost to other ash anions (SO4, mainly)
would be negligible in comparison.

Vegetables and fruits contain little sodium, but lots of potassium.

this is, by far, going to be your biggest variability.
reproducibility, unless you sample widely, will be suspect.

No doubt, you'll learn a lot. It may be the difficulty of getting acceptable
results with inadequate equipment. I had to do an undergraduate thesis in
college, and one of the major lessons from that was an appreciatuion for
good laboratory gear.

beavith

2004-07-07 14:10:10 UTC

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:59:20 -0400, "Marvin Margoshes"

Post by PaladinDave

http://www.nilu.no/projects/ccc/manual/documents/04_5-Determination%20of%20chloride%20in%20precipitation.htm

Post by PaladinDave
- and simply gravimetric determination of chloride content by
dissolving and filtering the french fries.

simplest method would be to calcine and do a gravimetric chloride
analysis on the ash with AgNO3, and report the result as NaCl.
you touch on the sampling error, which is going to impart huge
variability in the first place. the small amount of K that gets mixed
in or the small amount of Na lost to other ash anions (SO4, mainly)
would be negligible in comparison.

Vegetables and fruits contain little sodium, but lots of potassium.

that's right. should've thought of that.

Post by PaladinDave

this is, by far, going to be your biggest variability.
reproducibility, unless you sample widely, will be suspect.

Dave Palmer

2004-07-06 15:46:12 UTC

My point was not that you should simply look at the sodium content
value McDonald's provides -- you should find out how they *obtain*
that value, and when you compare the values you find to the values
they provide, you should discuss the differences in the methods.

Otherwise, I think your plan is a very good one. Having two
separate tests, and validating the tests with a standard NaCl
solution, are very good ideas.

Dave Palmer

PaladinDave

2004-07-08 06:00:52 UTC

From: ***@hotmail.com (PaladinDave)
Newsgroups: sci.chem.analytical,sci.bio.food-science
Subject: Re: Sodium content of McDonald's French Fries
References: <***@posting.google.com>
<BD0D8126.699E%***@yahoo.com>
<yFXFc.59$***@news.uchicago.edu>
<BD0DC7CF.69A3%***@yahoo.com> <4biGc.6$***@news.uchicago.edu>
<***@posting.google.com>
<***@posting.google.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 218.111.1.138

Post by Dave Palmer
My point was not that you should simply look at the sodium content
value McDonald's provides -- you should find out how they *obtain*
that value, and when you compare the values you find to the values
they provide, you should discuss the differences in the methods.
Otherwise, I think your plan is a very good one. Having two
separate tests, and validating the tests with a standard NaCl
solution, are very good ideas.
Dave Palmer

Ok, I see your point. I guess I'll have to ask them about that.

Post by Dave Palmer
simplest method would be to calcine and do a gravimetric chloride
analysis on the ash with AgNO3, and report the result as NaCl.
you touch on the sampling error, which is going to impart huge
variability in the first place. the small amount of K that gets mixed
in or the small amount of Na lost to other ash anions (SO4, mainly)
would be negligible in comparison.

"Marvin Margoshes"

Post by Marvin Margoshes
Vegetables and fruits contain little sodium, but lots of potassium.

Isn't potassium chloride toxic? Therefore, I couldn't imagine that
there could be very much potassium chloride in the French Fries. Any
potassium that is present I would imagine have to be bonded to some
other anion. Or maybe its just not as toxic as I thought...
http://www.hummelcroton.com/kcl_m.html,
http://www.camd.lsu.edu/msds/p/potassium_chloride_acs_reagent.htm:
20mg/kg

Marvin Margoshes

2004-07-08 15:48:26 UTC

Post by PaladinDave
Newsgroups: sci.chem.analytical,sci.bio.food-science
Subject: Re: Sodium content of McDonald's French Fries
NNTP-Posting-Host: 218.111.1.138

Ok, I see your point. I guess I'll have to ask them about that.

"Marvin Margoshes"

Post by Marvin Margoshes
Vegetables and fruits contain little sodium, but lots of potassium.

In very large amounts, potassium is toxic. I don't think you can get a
toxic dose from vegetables, but you could take an overdose of KI pills.

beavith

2004-07-09 13:25:41 UTC

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:48:26 -0400, "Marvin Margoshes"

Post by Marvin Margoshes

Post by PaladinDave
Newsgroups: sci.chem.analytical,sci.bio.food-science
Subject: Re: Sodium content of McDonald's French Fries
NNTP-Posting-Host: 218.111.1.138

Ok, I see your point. I guess I'll have to ask them about that.

"Marvin Margoshes"

Post by Marvin Margoshes
Vegetables and fruits contain little sodium, but lots of potassium.

In very large amounts, potassium is toxic. I don't think you can get a
toxic dose from vegetables, but you could take an overdose of KI pills.

yeah, its because the body is in a tight balance between Na and K
concentration. if you start to get too much, the kidney wastes it out
as fast as possible. i believe KCl is the coup de grace that stops the
heart of people that are executed by lethal injection.
folks on dialysis have to be very careful of K intake. for some
bizarre reason, astronauts get out of whack, along with people on
steroids. interestingly, those that take K supplements (steroid
patients and astronauts) wind up with wild cases of flatulence. its
worth a chuckle if you are on steroids, but i can imagine its not a
laughing matter if you are an astronaut.

Marvin Margoshes

2004-07-06 16:55:29 UTC

Post by Dave Palmer
Another thought, although the original poster appears to be
long gone: McDonald's and Burger King are required by U.S. law
to report the sodium content of their french fries.
Although I am not familiar with the food industry, I would
assume that there is a standard test method which they are
required to follow. It would not be very helpful to consumers
to know that brand A has X milligrams of sodium and brand B
has Y milligrams of sodium, if these numbers are obtained by
different methods.

When nutritional labelling was first required for packaged food, I worked at
a company that made automated analytical equip,ment. We thought we had
found a big, new market. Then we learned that it was only necessary to
analyze a few samples from one lot, once or twice a year. In a fast-food
kitchen, I odubtr that there is real control over how much salt is dumped
onto the french fries.

Post by Dave Palmer
Presumably the standard would be issued by FDA or USDA. It
should be a matter of public record, and should not be
difficult to obtain.
Now, it may be that the standard test method would require
instrumentation that the original poster does not have access
to; nevertheless, if he is going to compare the results he
obtains with the published values, he should be sure to discuss
the manner in which the published values were obtained.
By the way, this is a great high school project. I wish I
could say I was thinking about this sort of thing when I was
in high school. Unfortunately, at the time I was interested
in other kinds of "chemistry".
Dave Palmer

Dave Palmer

2004-07-07 04:32:31 UTC

Post by Marvin Margoshes
When nutritional labelling was first required for packaged food, I
worked at a company that made automated analytical equipment. We
thought we had found a big, new market. Then we learned that it was
only necessary to analyze a few samples from one lot, once or twice
a year.

Interesting. If the requirements are so lax, then how is it possible
to establish whether or not a nutritional claim on a package is true?

To what extent are companies legally responsible for the
truthfulness of their nutritional claims? What, legally, does the
statement "this product contains 10 mg of sodium" mean, and how
does it differ from a statement like "this product is a
low-sodium food"?

Dave Palmer

Marvin Margoshes

2004-07-07 17:36:00 UTC